Material Feels

Thursday, April 14, 2022

Episode description: Laura talks with fellow Oakland podcaster Catherine Monahon of Material Feels about what brings them joy, why they create, and the unexpected gift that podcasting has given them. Complete show notes at www.shelterinplacepodcast.org

Tell us what Shelter in Place has meant to you here. Need instructions? Find them here.

Find Material Feels here and more about Catherine Monahon here.

[TRANSCRIPT]

Laura: Have you ever thought about your relationship with the physical objects that make up your everyday life? 

I think it was Julia Cameron’s book The Artist’s Way that first got me thinking about this decades ago. I still remember the indulgence of buying a fountain pen and an overpriced but beautiful notebook to write in from an arts supplies store. It was a splurge I felt grateful for every single time I wrote in those pages. 

Over the years I’ve come to appreciate the material objects in my life in other areas, too: how my favorite green coffee mug feels when I sip from it; the way a really comfortable pair of shoes can make your whole body feel better; how a down comforter on a cold night transports me back to my childhood.

This week, I’m sharing a conversation with a fellow podcaster who’s thought a lot about material objects—so much so that they’ve devoted their show to the topic.

I met Catherine, the host of Material Feels, a few months ago when they reached out over email. I listened to Catherine’s show and immediately recognized a kindred spirit. 

Then I realized that we were both in Oakland, and a few days later we were having drinks in our backyard and a friendship had begun.

Today, Catherine and I are inviting you into that friendship to talk about the things that bring us joy in our own podcasts and each other’s, and also why we keep creating, and why podcasting has made us feel more connected and grateful. What I love most about this conversation that you’re about to hear is that what you’re about to hear was a joyful collaboration between Catherine and me. 

When you’re done listening, I hope you’ll subscribe to Material Feels, and leave a five-star rating and review with a quick note about what you enjoyed about the episode.

Here’s Catherine to kick off that conversation.

Catherine: Hi everyone. I'm Catherine Monahon. I'm an audio storyteller based in Oakland. I'm an artist and I make a show called Material Feels, which is about the intimate relationships that people have with the materials they fall in love with. 

Laura: I am Laura Joyce Davis, and I'm the host and executive producer of Shelter in Place, which is a podcast that began with the pandemic, but very quickly became a way to re-imagine life through creativity and community. I'm also the founder and president of the Kasama Collective, which is a podcast training and mentorship program for women and non-binary creators. And we also run a course, Kasama Labs. 

So, Catherine, why do you create? 

Catherine: The reason that I create my show is because I believe that art is a human right. And I think that the arts can sometimes feel inaccessible or intimidating. Creating a show that celebrates all kinds of makers and artists and invites people into the conversation is really important so that more people feel that they're allowed to create. What about you?

Laura: Yeah, I think for me, it's coming from a similar place. When I started Shelter in Place, it really began as a way to just figure out how to live in this very ever-present reality that things are not as they should be—but I didn't want to end up in a place of despair and hopelessness.

When I create, it's always in some way, trying to work at that question of how do I live in the tension between the pain and the brokenness—and the despair even—and also not lose hope and find ways to really truly connect with people, even in times where we might be feeling really isolated or alone.

I was a fiction writer for more than 20 years—and still am a fiction writer—before I ever did podcasting. And I think that my work in some way was always trying to grapple with living in that tension of how do we not be hopeless in the face of life that sometimes feels very discouraging? And how do we use art and connection and creativity to find meaning—even out of the days that feel meaningless, which I think we all have those.  That’s why I create. 

Catherine: That's what I love about shelter in place. It's like looking around the world with a magnifying glass and looking for those moments of why am I doing what I'm doing? How can I feel more? Or why am I feeling this? And what's going on? It's very inquisitive. And then it's also very spacious. I love that about your show because I want to be there with you. It kind of slows down my mind and I can be present with you. And that's a real gift. 

Laura: I love that so much. And I'm so glad. I have always had these friendships in my life with all sorts of different artists. And what I was going to say about your show is I feel like I'm having a conversation with the cool artsy friend who's got the great music on in the background and that you just always come away with some wonderful nugget of wisdom and insight, not just into what they're going through, but in your own process. And I've had this experience so many times over the years with painter friends of mine and you know, my little brother for a while was a Broadway actor. And I remember constantly thinking, oh, all this stuff he's talking about, acting applies for writing too. And that is very much the feeling that I get with Material Feels. And it's something that we strive for at Shelter in Place too, so I feel like in that way, we're kindred spirit shows. 

Catherine: Absolutely. Yeah. When I first heard Shelter in place., you had a bunch of asides about your own mental health and introspection. And I feel like that is something that is value that I have with my show. And we want our listeners to meet us there and step in with us. We put our hearts into our shows, which I really love about. 

Laura: One of the best realizations that I had as a creator was that one of the greatest things I could offer my listeners was me, actually—like the real Laura.

That's scary, but that's also really exciting at the same time to be able to just sort of claim even the hard things. You know, you mentioned mental health and that's definitely been a part of my journey. To claim that and say this whole complicated picture of who I am is actually something that hopefully other people can resonate with. Again, getting back to living in that tension: the hard parts and the wonderful parts of life seeing those things, not as in competition with each other, but the complex, paradoxical way that we exist in this world. And both of those things can be true at once. There can be tragedy and there can be delight and joy—sometimes in the very same moment. 

It's crazy that that's possible, but it is. I think, especially in these times that just feel so challenging, I think sometimes the best thing we can do for each other is to just allow each other to be in that messy tension and recognize that some days we're going to show up really well, and other days we won't. But we can still support each other in that. There's art to be found in the mess too, right? 

What's something that you know, now that you wish that you'd known when you started? 

Catherine: I think it tied in a little bit to what you said about the real Laura. For me, it was being really open about who I am and my vision with my guests. When I first started, I was under the impression that you kind of had to be soft with people and let them open up. I was feeling almost secretive about what I was doing, like, oh, I don't want them to catch on that I'm trying to talk about mental health and philosophy and love. It's like, I'll just tell them that This is what the show is, and this is who I am and who I'm not. And give people a sort of head start so that they can really dive in.

And then one more thing is that it's okay that my process is slow. I am also an artist. I make art, I teach art, and I think now two years into making Material Feels, it's okay that I share audio and art. I share multiple spaces. And I have to slow down and make space for both. 

Laura: I started really tracking my hours this year, which was something that I hadn't done carefully before. ‘Cause I thought, ah, yeah, I probably spend 30, maybe 40 hours on an episode. And I realized it's regularly 60 on up. And it's very rare actually, that it's less than that. 

Catherine: And those are weekly episodes. 

Laura: You can imagine my struggle, which is something I'm very actively working on and making big changes in my life all over the place. It can't happen all at once, but no, I mean, it's, been a real process for me of being real with myself and really tracking that time. 

Even though I've gotten very fast at certain parts of the production process, there are other parts you just inevitably can't be fast at. You have to slow down and you have to spend the time that it takes to create something really great. And I'm always glad that I spent that time. I don't ever regret it afterward, but I think communicating that to guests up front of look, not only will I edit this interview tape—I don't ever want somebody to hear an interview that I've done with them and say, ‘well, that doesn't sound like me’—but at the same time, I'm working really hard to make them sound like the best and most articulate versions of themselves. And then even beyond that, creating this narrative structure that I know you understand so well where it's like we're writing voiceover and we're moving things around and we're thinking a lot about how do I highlight this person and the things that they've said so that those words and those thoughts absolutely sing if I do it right? How do I use my words to really celebrate them in a way that amplifies everything that they're saying—and then maybe even goes beyond that to call out things that maybe they haven't explicitly said, but that are true about them.

And the episode with Anthony Doerr, who was my very first creative writing teacher 22 years ago. It was such a fun episode for me to do for so many reasons, but one of those is that I have just loved his writing for 22 years of my life, it's shaped me profoundly. And to get to celebrate him and his work in an episode and help the world, see why I have been recommending his books to everybody for decades now—like, that's a joy. That's a huge reason that I create, because I want to sing the praises of other artists and other good people in the world who are taking chances with their work and their life and they’re really putting their heart into what they're doing. And I want people to be able to see that. I want them to be able to celebrate that with me. 

Catherine: I felt that when I was listening to it earlier today. I felt the connection between you two and I felt that you were honoring him. And I also just felt that he had so much to offer just chatting. That was wonderful. And I agree. When I'm talking to artists, craftspeople, bartenders—when I'm talking to them, they don't get a lot of opportunity to speak about their materials. I had one person a couple of weeks ago for season three. I interviewed her and she said, I have never talked about my art like this before. Like thank you for giving me the opportunity to just even think about this. 

Laura: And it takes me back to something that I thought a lot about over the years, which is that as an artist, but even just as a person, there's so much of ourselves that we end up not sharing, even with the people really close to us. 

There were so many times in my life as a fiction writer for 20 some years. Where I would be working on novels or short stories or essays and pouring my heart into them and even sometimes getting them published—but then, you know, how many people in your life actually engage with that work that you're doing? It's very small, the percentages for most of us, I think. And so I would have all of these weird disconnects in my relationships where here I have this very deeply personal thing that I'm doing that is one of the most important ways that I show up in the world, and yet most of the people who are in my inner circle, like we've maybe never had a conversation about it, or maybe once in a blue moon. And I think part of that is people don't know how to ask about it if that's not part of their world. 

I think one of the things that podcasting has done for me is it's kind of bridge that gap in my life. You know, I'm very fortunate and grateful that I have parents who listen to every episode. Like that's amazing to me that they think that it's important to spend the time to listen to episodes of Shelter in Place. And I love that. And it's actually, I mean, my mom said it a couple of months ago. She was like, “I feel like I know you better because of listening to the podcast.” And I'm like, “yeah, I think you actually do. I think that's true.” And so I love that your show is giving people that opportunity to share what's really important to them—their answer in a way to that “why create”question. I think that's really what it speaks to and why it's such a gift when somebody gives you the chance to just share why you're passionate about this thing that you're spending so much of your life doing.

Catherine: I never thought about it in that way. I love how you just said that because the way that I feel when people listen to my show and want to talk to me about it, it does open up a really special connection. And it is like what we're doing with our guests, talking about their process. It's like very layered. 

Laura: It's a reminder—and I keep giving myself this reminder—that asking people, not just about what they're doing at work or whatever, I mean, we all ask those questions. Right. But really asking people “what are the things that you do in the world that make you excited or joyful or that make you feel seen?” 

Catherine: That's actually my tell at parties, I go around and I ask everybody, “why do you wake up in the morning?” Sometimes I go a little too far with the big talk and the big ideas, but I agree with you.It's like, let's make space for people to talk about what really sets them on fire and gets them going.

Laura: Exactly.

Catherine: I would love it. If you would talk about one of your favorite episodes. an episode that people should start with or whatever.

Laura: I mentioned the Anthony Doerr one, which is a recent one that I just love. I think another one though, that's been just such a fun one to come back to is an episode called Finding the Fuego, and it is about Adriana, who is a good friend of mine. She's a co-founder of making waves studios. She's also a photographer. So she's an artist as well. She actually moved to the bay area to go to art school here at California College of the Arts. I love her story because it's this wonderful, delightful journey of her really coming to accept herself, both as an artist and, you know, culturally she's from Venezuela and she grew up kind of straddling cultures between Miami and Venezuela and then California. There is so much in that episode where she's just bringing to light her own artistic and personal struggles, but showing the way that those things really are one in the same so much of the time. The things that we struggle with as creatives or as people, a lot of times they come from the exact same places and the exact same insecurities. 

Adriana: When I get to dance, it’s like I become this different version of myself, which is amazing. All that chatter, that voice that we have in our heads of your not enough, or you’re too fat, you’re too tall, you’re too this, you don’t have enough money, you don’t have enough of this, you don’t—at least for me, my brain is working 24-7. I wake up and my brain is like rat-a-tat-a-tat-a-tat. That’s a huge thing that I really struggle with. So when I get to just show up as Adriana the Zumba instructor and just dance, I have so much fun. For that sixty minutes that I am teaching, I am definitely a different version of Adriana, and it’s amazing. 

Laura: She's really honest about the struggles that—not just artists face, but all of us—you know, as a woman. She's a Zumba instructor and she talks about all of the body image stuff. But also how integrated that is with the struggle to feel like enough in any area of our life. And it's such a joyful episode. It was a really fun one to make. There's just this huge range of emotions. There's so much laughter and there's like all this wonderful Spanglish. You know, you get her fuego. I experienced her in that episode in a very distilled way that I think is, exactly how I experience her in the rest of life going to her classes and dancing. And that being one of the best parts of my week, every single week is to go to her class. Again, it's a joy to celebrate her. It's so much fun to be able to highlight the wonderful things that people are doing in the world and just, you know, these amazing people. 

Catherine: I love that you've found a gem and then made space for it with your show. And you felt that authentic laughter and joy. It sounds like a special episode. I'm excited to listen to it. 

Laura: What's one of your favorite episodes? 

Catherine: One of my favorites is the one with Debra's Resco about glass.

Deborah: It’s those feelings, right? . . . . 

Catherine: It was such a special episode to me because. I admired Deborah from afar. She was on a Netflix special called Blown Away. I loved how she was with her material. She was really serious, but also funny and jubilant. And I thought to myself while watching the show, I want to interview her. She should be on Material Feels. I took a screenshot of a show and put like “@Netflix @Debra's Resco, I love you” or something.

And she liked the message. And I was like, “oh my gosh, do you want to be on my show?” And she said, yes, because she liked the show. The fact that I got in touch with her and that she was so into the show and she listened to it and was like honored to be on my show. And I was so honored to speak to her.

It was really a moment of realization for me of like, when you want to speak to someone, when you know that you're aligned with someone, just reach out what happens. And she shared so much wisdom 

In that episode, we talk a lot about love it's not like, sunshine and butterflies. It's like all of the tumultuous, wild and crazy things that come with. And love of a material and love of something that's really hard and you have to stick with it and maybe you don't get the recognition at first or whatever.

And she calls it simmering that she's been simmering and she's come to a boil now with glassblowing. All that resonated so much with me. I got emotional during that conversation.

And then the last piece of it was that I couldn't be there in person she lives in Brooklyn and with the pandemic I couldn't get there. And so my associate producer, Liz, who's one of my best friends. Went to Brooklyn on my behalf with this very microphone and captured all the sound and was this beautiful link. And the three of us were sort of together.

Laura: I can't wait to listen to it. It sounds great. I haven't heard that one yet. 

Okay. I've been sitting here thinking about my three words for your show. I think the three words I would choose would be tactile, authentic, and joyful. I really think your show captures the joy and the creation process. It shares that creative process with people in a way that even if you're not an artist, we all have some version of that. To get back to that very first question of why do you create, every single one of us, if we think about what we do, how we show up in the world, even if we don't consider ourselves artists, we are all creators of something. It might be a relationship or it might be. Some skill set that we have that we give to the world. But I think that your show does a really beautiful job of capturing that process that we go through of not just creating the thing and what goes into that, but how we understand ourselves as we go through that process and how that process can actually be really healing both for ourselves and for the people that experience it.

Catherine: Let me just say again that anyone who's interested in creativity should listen to Shelter in Place. 

The three words that I thought of for your show were spacious, observant, and restorative. That's what I'm looking for in a show. So I'm like really excited to, sit down and get to listen to your show. And I think listeners of Material feels will vibe with that. Both of our shows are sound-rich. They’re narrative shows, they focus on creativity. And so when we discovered one another, our connection just like happened instantly. I came over and within a couple of days and we had drinks in your backyard. Definitely listen to Laura’s show and know that shelter in place, the music is so good and it's beautifully woven into the story, which has then beautifully woven into a conversation or an interview.

Laura: And all of the things Catherine just said, very kind things about shelter in place are also true of material fields. I mean, this is, why this was such a natural connection. Anybody who's listening to this, I hope you'll check out material fields. It's a wonderful show. And it's been really fun, Catherine, to get to know you a little bit as a fellow bay area, artist and podcaster. And for people who don't know your show, where can they find you? 

Catherine:  if you want to find everything. my website is C X M productions.com. You can find my ceramic stuff and my newsletter and then material feels. 

Material fields is wherever you listen to your podcasts. You can listen on Spotify, apple, Google, Stitcher and. I also have ceramic studio called wave form ceramics and that's audio themed art. So if you're really into audio, you can get miniature audio equipment, and you can take ceramics classes and come find me and reach out. And I would love to hear from you, and then Shelter in Place? Where people are going to listen to that?

Laura: people can find that also at all the places, you can go to any podcasting app or you can always find everything at shelterinplacepodcast.org. We also have a newsletter that we send out Sharing things that are giving us joy and inspiring us. And sometimes that stuff in our episodes. And sometimes it's other stuff happening out in the world by other good people. Doing cool stuff. 

Well, thank you so much, Catherine. This was really fun. 

Catherine: Yeah. Thanks Laura.

Laura: The conversation you just heard was with Catherine Monahon, the host and co-creator of Material Feels.

You can find Material Feels, all of Catherine’s art, and sign up for Rabbit Hole Buffet the fantastic newsletter Catherine writes at CXMproductions.com. 

Special thanks to Catherine Monahon and Elizabeth de Lise for creating this week’s episode with me. For most of the past week I had a fever and was generally feeling terrible. Being able to collaborate with Catherine saved me and helped me to get myself to bed early when I needed it most. Catherine gets most of the credit for this week’s sound design, and with the exception of a couple of Storyblocks tracks we used for our Finding the Fuego clip, the music you heard today was produced by Material Feels Associate Producer Elizabeth de Lise. 

The Shelter in Place music was created by Chase Horsman at Reaktor Productions. Nate Davis is our creative director. Sarah Edgell is our design director. Melissa Lent is our project manager. And as always, I’m your host and executive producer. Until next time, this is Shelter in Place. I’m Laura Joyce Davis.